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Discussion Starter #1
I'm ready to order my AP so my question is are these maps really safe? I want to order from Perrin so I can get there stage 1 map. Are these maps hard on our engines, do they push levels too high especially the perrin? The perrin map is getting even more horse power than the cobb according to perrin. I'm sorry if this is a stupid question as I have read a bit on these but don't remember anyone saying these are safe.
Thanks for your help!
 

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I haven't been running mine for very long, but I really can't think of why they wouldn't be safe as long as they don't cause knock or run borked up AFR's. My Perrin Stage 1 AFR's are perfect at this point. I don't hear any audible knock, but i guess you never know. If you are really concerned you could always get some gauge or light that registers knock. These maps will be harder on your TC though as they will force it to run a lot harder. However, I figure a dead TC is just a reason to upgrade to something larger.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the reply. If the tc goes out, then upgrade for sure. Did you see any difference when you installed the new map?
 

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I definitely saw a very noticeable improvement in torque and midrange with the perrin 91oct Stage1 map. Check this section of the forum: http://www.3gwrx.com/forum/index.php?board=59.0 There are a number of threads on the topic.

Left Coast WRX would probably have some better info for you as he is pretty well informed on this topic.
 

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Left Coast WRX would probably have some better info for you as he is pretty well informed on this topic.
I guess I will chime in since I got called out, I would chime in anyway!!! That is funny stuff right there... ;D & write a novel too boot!!!!

I have had a lot of the same concerns. So I have done a lot of research on the tuning/mapping for our ECU's, because I did not want to damage my ride either. I am more than happy to pass along what I have learned.

First off Papa WRX, I noticed on a different thread that you ordered the AP from Perrin… IMO you made a good choice.

My initial thoughts on the Perrin map were 17PSI was pretty high too. I held on to that map for a week or two debating on if I should install it or not and wondering if the map would be safe too. I did some research and came to the conclusion that it would be safe enough.

Just like any mod that produces more power there is an inherent risk that will take towards detonation. But you can take steps to reduce that risk. With that in mind, the auto industry is always going to leave some power on the table. That way the industry will not have to do much on the production side to make more HP and Torque for the next model Year. What Perrin did was tap into the power that was left on the table.

What Cobb did was to follow the OEM mapping pretty closely. This was conservative at best. Cobb only added about 1psi of boost, not really enough to make a huge difference. I did pulls with a tuner on OEM mapping, to my surprise I found was that OEM mapping had some considerable knock at the higher RPM's. The car ran really lean, they did that pass MPG and emission regulations. Cobb richened up the AFR (a little) and smoothed out the power band; in doing that they got rid of the knock and basically made the car run better. With no real gain.

To try to compare Perrin to Cobb is apples and oranges. They are coming at this from two different angles. Cobb went ultra safe and Perrin went fairly aggressive. As I was talking to a tuner a while back he was telling me a Stage I tune could safely produce 210WHP and 240ft-lbs, which is just shy of a 20% gain of WHP, where the rubber meets the road.

W/O data logging you can see if your motor is knocking by looking at “Live Data”. On a “Drive By Wire” (DBW) system, the "Dynamic Advance Multiplier" (DAM) should read “1”. That means you ECU is happy and you are not pulling any timing, due to knock. You would not necessarily hear the knock, but if it is there the DAM will show it.

My DAM has shown “1” pretty much from the beginning. Under load my AFR is good and I have seen 17PSI on the AP. I have had no real issues with the map.

IMO the map kicks @ss... You should see a huge difference, I would take it easy on the car for a 100 to 200 miles (maybe a tank of gas) on the Perrin map, give the ECU a chance to learn, and let us know what you think!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Left Coast WRX, thanks for the novel. It was a good read. I feel better about my choice and I am excited to feel the difference. Thanks for the replies and the info. I really appreciate the help.
 

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Left Coast WRX with yet another very information packed reply. +1 Karma.

I wondered what the DAM was exactly, I've been watching it just not sure what it was. I really need to go over the AP stuff in that link you posted a few days ago. I'm very surprised that you were getting knock on the stock mapping. If that's not encouragement to get an AP, then I don't know what is.
 

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Left Coast WRX with yet another very information packed reply. +1 Karma.

I wondered what the DAM was exactly, I've been watching it just not sure what it was. I really need to go over the AP stuff in that link you posted a few days ago. I'm very surprised that you were getting knock on the stock mapping. If that's not encouragement to get an AP, then I don't know what is.
The DAM is very complicated that touches most primary tables with in the ECU. The last 4 pages of the Cobb PDF Document explains the Primary Ignition to Dynamic Advance to the DAM and how it related to knock... I know you have it Chanke but I thought that Papa WRX might like to read it.

http://www.cobbforums.com/forums/images/AccessTUNERSoftwareCalibrationTuningGuidesSubarusv111.pdf

It is thick but worth the read...

I was floored when I saw the knock in the Data Logs on my OEM mapping... If the motor was to detoniate, subie would be on the hook for it :-\
 

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Does anybody know what the difference is between Perrin's Stage I vs Stage II maps? And what mods are required for Stage II?

My whole mod plan map has been messed up; I was going to get the AP/Perrin Stage I setup first, but now that I already have the SPT Catback, I'm thinking about going ahead and doing the downpipe next, and then the programmer... so wanted to see what else I would need to use the Stage II program.

Rob
 

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Does anybody know what the difference is between Perrin's Stage I vs Stage II maps? And what mods are required for Stage II?

My whole mod plan map has been messed up; I was going to get the AP/Perrin Stage I setup first, but now that I already have the SPT Catback, I'm thinking about going ahead and doing the down pipe next, and then the programmer... so wanted to see what else I would need to use the Stage II program.

Rob
The difference between stage I and stage II maps has to do with the different mods that are on the car. There are some mods that you can install that will keep you at stage I Like your SPT CBE (Catback) will still run on OEM or Stage I mapping.

Your plan as far as mods is in pretty good shape, if it was my plan (which is pretty close to your plan) I would make one adjustment. IMO before you go stage II you SHOULD have Engine Management, like the AP. If you are planning to buy one I would purchase it from Perrin, because of the maps.

Stage II mapping is for cars that have at a min. of a Down Pipe (DP) if not a DP and a CBE (Which you already have) for the full Turbo Back (TBE) and can run OTS Stage II mapping from Perrin, RalliTek... Where ever you want...

If your plan stops at stage II or a TBE then I would consider an AP and then the DP and a PROTune. OTS mapping will only go so far, but a PROTune is very specific to you car and will make more power than an OTS Map. If you have more engine mods that you are looking at I would consider lumping as you can together and then a PROTune. PROTunes are expensive (about 300 give or take...) and very specific to the mods that you have installed on your car. If you add more mods you should get another PROTune...

All in all you are close to stage II you would need Engine management and a DP, and IMO in that order and you are there!
 

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Well it looks like I made mistake getting mine directly from Cobb, from what I read it looks like they took the conservative approach with their maps. One question, Cobb's stage 2 map says it requires a TBE, is that true for their map and maybe not true if you have a map from Perrin?

Right now I have a SPT exhaust and I am waiting for a Cobb downpipe to arrive any day...Does this enable me to go with a Stage 2 map?

I know I sound like a newbie but I'm coming from the VW world and it's a lot different.
 

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Well it looks like I made mistake getting mine directly from Cobb, from what I read it looks like they took the conservative approach with their maps. One question, Cobb's stage 2 map says it requires a TBE, is that true for their map and maybe not true if you have a map from Perrin?

Right now I have a SPT exhaust and I am waiting for a Cobb downpipe to arrive any day...Does this enable me to go with a Stage 2 map?

I know I sound like a newbie but I'm coming from the VW world and it's a lot different.
Ya know KB, if I could call ya KB ;) That is the exact set up that I am looking at, my SPT is on the way, Cobb DP is going to take a month or 2 to save for.

There is no mistake buying your AP from Cobb, Perrin sells the exact same AP, but they offer their maps as a sort of bonus or incentive. I bought my AP from Cobb and I am running a Perrin Stage I 91oct map right now.

Perrin Stage II or stage II in general requires, a DP at a min., TBE is better for the full effect. Right now with the SPT you are stage I, once that DP comes in and after the install you will have your TBE and you should/need to go with a stage II map.

Both Cobb & Perrin, have Stage I and Stage II maps

If you are looking for a more agressive OTS map for stage I or II they are floating around the board ;)
 

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so just to clarify...if you buy the cobb ap from perrin they'll throw in their own maps as a bonus (limited time)? and you have the choice of using the cobb stage1 map or the perrin stage1 map? ...Also I'd like to hear more from people who have used the perrin map if anyone has their $.02 to share.

-Dail
 

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perrin will throw in 1 free additional map w/ the purchase of the ap. both the stg1 and stg 2 maps are very nice :)
Yep, I got the AP from Perrin and got one free map. I went with stage 1. And it is very nice. Now, if I could just find a Perrin stage 2 93 oct. map lying around here. ;)
 

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perrin will throw in 1 free additional map w/ the purchase of the ap. both the stg1 and stg 2 maps are very nice :)
Yep, I got the AP from Perrin and got one free map. I went with stage 1. And it is very nice. Now, if I could just find a Perrin stage 2 93 oct. map lying around here. ;)
It is amazing what you find in your email... just lying around ;D
 

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;) ;) ;D
One sometimes gets lucky and finds things.
 
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